SUPERLIST'S FUTURE - AVENIR SUPERLISTE

We need your opinion. What is your advice about our superlist's future ? The big-day is amazing and terribly chocking !
175 bigs in France according to the tour in our superlist and only 5 french member in the big-day for more than 300 members in the challenge. If we give exception to our dear and courageous french managers, the other ones mainly climb in France, nowhere else.
6 bigs in Hungary and 62 cyclists present in Dobogókö for the big-day. 10 bigs in Romania and nearly 15 members present in their country for the big-day. A terrible presence percentage !!!!
Hungary and Romania ask now more than 6 and 10 bigs. Too much in France ? Too less in the eastern countries ? What's your opinion ?
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Nous avons besoin de votre opinion. Quel est votre avis sur l'avenir de notre superliste ? Le big-day est à ce point de vue étonnant et choquant. !
175 bigs en France grâce au tour dans notre superliste et seulement 5 présents sur plus de 300 membres le jour du big-day. Si nous exceptons nos courageux et chers managers, les autres grimpent principalement en... France et nulle part ailleurs.
6 bigs en Hongrie et 62 cyclistes présents au Dobogókö pour le big-day. 10 bigs en Roumanie et près de 15 roumains levant leur vélo le jour J. Un terrible pourcentage de représentation.
La Hongrie et la Roumanie réclament maintenant plus de 6 et 10 bigs dans la superliste. Trop de bigs en France ? Trop peu dans les pays de l'est ? Quelle est votre opinion ?

Hello Daniel,
I think we can / should analyse the difference between the participants of the BIG day cyclists and between the numbers of BIGs / countiries with the details.
1, Participants: how it was propagated and how good the weather was and how motivated the memebrs / others are.
We had good weather, we could propagate it well and you have to know that the hungarian critical Mass is has the most participants all over the world, so maybe a lot of cyclists can be interested in it if they love cycling up.
And the last: our BIG day BIG was next to Budapest, where the most member and other cyclists live.
(I believe if it would better propagate in other countries more participants cycled in other countries. )
2, your question --> the number of BIGs / countries. I think it also should analyse with details. the BIGs should analyse if each one is serious (with its cycling history, hardness, tourism, media, etc) enough to be a BIG. For example in the Alps there should be a lot of BIGs, but if we speak about other regions : it can be compare for example to other BIGs in eastern (or other) countries: are they good enough or BETTER enough then a BIG could be in Hungary.
I try to find examples (you told France, but maybe there could be others:)
for example there are 10 BIGs in Bretagne, 3 others next to Belgium, and a few ones in the middle of France with not too high mountains.
The height of the BIGs in Brategne: mainly 200-300 meters and not too hard.
the height of the 5 next to Belgium (no. 211-215): 177 m, 152 m, 456 m, 383 m, 350 m.
(for example 211: 3 km with 3-5% .... very light, but I don't know the history of it or if it is mediatic ?)
other BIgs in the middle of France: 226-230 or
other place which can be analysed is (for example) the Irish islands: 13 BIGs: heights are 2-600m.
The Irish island terrain is (84th km2 which is less than the terrain of Hungary: 93th km2) and you can see the hardness and other values of BIGs. ..... Hungary is larger and has more serious climbs.

(I analysed this based your sentences as you mentioned France + looking at the British islands and first of them was Irish islands)

3, OTHER: it's a good idea to look the popularity of cycling ascents in the countries, but otherwise the BASIC of the number of BIG / countries the history, hardness, beauty, media, tourism. But I think you think the same.

Based the 3 reasons above I - as hungarian - would be happier with more BIGs not too far from my / our home, with listening to the above mentioned values of te BIGs. For example: the "small", but hard hill on the route of the
Ronde van Vlaanderen has much more value than a similar one in Hungary.
But for example we could suggest 3-4 examples that you can compare with other "no name" climbs in France or in other countries with Too much (??) BIGs.
For example a BIG opportunity next to Tokaj (one of the most famous wine plantation region in Hungary) with ca 4 kms with 9-10% steepness.

If there is much lighter ones in other places you can think more concrete (is it grammatically correct ?) about replacement.

In a few days I will collect 2-4 examples in Hungary, after which you and others can compare it with other "no name" climbs at other places.

Gabor

PS: For me France is the country where I love cycling the most as cycling was born here and the Tour the France.....
and the Paris - Brest - Paris is also famous but maybe there are places (here and in other countries ?) where there are not so good / hard / beautiful BIgs than in Hungary.

I hope Claudiu or other romanian members will write about Romania. Its better to rate the terrain of a country (from the BIGs point of view) by a guy who live there.

A mon humble avis, si on se met à tirer sur le pianiste français, la décence et la probité nous engage à passer au crible tous les résultats, sans exception.
Ma première réaction, - et je ne me fais pas l'avocat du diable -, la France n'est pas la seule à faire un flop ! Proportionnellement, les listes nordiques ( 1 & 2 ) font un score aussi médiocre puisqu'il n'y a que Kevin pour sauver l'honneur ! L'Autriche, pas mieux ! L'Italie, bien en-dessous de ce qu'on était en droit d'attendre ! La Suisse, inexistante ! L'Espagne sauve tout juste les meubles. Voilà pour les pays riches en Bigs. Quant à la liste 3, elle fait un score très honorable puisque le nombre de participants était 2 fois supérieur au nombre de Bigs répertoriés dans ces pays. Bravo à nos amis hongrois et roumains !
Maintenant, pourquoi pénaliser la France ? D'accord, mais vu la proximité, il me semble plus logique de revoir la liste autrichienne qui avantagerait davantage nos amis magyars et roumains. Qui, en somme, serait une compensation, voire un juste retour pour leur magnifique contribution au BIG-Day. Quitte à tourner manège, lors des noces d'or, si nos amis hongrois s'endorment sur leurs lauriers et que les Autrichiens se réveillent inopinément en bloc.
Mais revenons à la France puisque c'est elle qui est sur la sellette !
Si c'est elle qui doit faire les frais, pourquoi pas ? Puisque pratiquement un tiers de BIGs fait double emploi avec les sommets repris dans le challenge des Monts de France, pourquoi pas les supprimer de sorte qu'il n'y ait plus d'interférence entre les deux brevets ? Comme le challenge des Monts de France est géré par Dominique, qui est aussi président d'honneur du BIG, il est tout à fait envisageable de créer une entente cordiale entre les deux épreuves. Quid ?
Quant à moi, je considère la présente question comme une réaction épidermique. Que fera-t-on quand l'Albanie se réveillera, elle qui compte plus de 400 cols ? Tourner manège, une fois de plus ? Pourquoi pas ?
A tel point, qu'un jour, deux lauréats du BIG seront lauréats de 2 brevets différents !
Qu'on épure les listes, d'accord ! Mais de là , faire du BIG un brevet de complaisance, je n'en brigue pas la paternité.
Désolé pour cette longue intervention qui n'est cependant qu'un début de réponse.

Summary:
France made a poor score ! OK ! But many other big countries didn't better. Even bad, yes ! So, why punish only France ?
I do not agreed with that solution because...to whom the turn next time ?
And than ? Changing once again ?
At last, there will be a lot of "winners of the Big" without any comparison because they have played in different games with others claims.
Such a changing need an open board !
At last, people will not know any more which way to turn !


Bruffaerts José
www.cyclojose.be

I think Gabor's answer is very interesting and I agree with him on many points. But I cannot give a correct opinion since I am one of these bloody lazy Frenchmen. I am really sorry we did not participate to this main event. I did my best to contact people before and they all had "good" reasons not to come.
Just one thing, another point of view : I drove 1400 km in this week end to participate to BIG Day. Did someone drive more than me ?

François Candau
BIG Manager for France

Pays Membres Participants % Nb de BIG
au BIG DAY dans le pays

Lettonie 1 1 100,00 1
Hongrie 71 62 87,32 6
Luxembourg 27 14 51,85 13
Roumanie 71 15 21,12 10
Espagne 215 34 15,81 125
Slovaquie 34 4 11,76 7
Belgique FR 218 24 11,00 20
Austria 11 1 9,09 75
Deutscland 135 12 8,80 50
Italia 288 21 7,29 150
Nederland 810 55 6,79 10

Belgïe Vlanderen 276 9 3,26 7
Great Britain 61 1 1,64 37
France 325 5 1,53 175

Tchequie 90 0 0 7
Irlande 58 0 0 13
Pologne 47 0 0 5
Suisse 45 0 0 75
Pays scandinaves 39 0 0 50
Grèce 7 0 0 27
Slovénie 6 0 0 6
Portugal 5 0 0 25
Croatie 3 0 0 8
Albanie 1 0 0 2
USA 5 0 0 10

Ukraine
Russie
Estonie
Bielarus Lituanie
Moldavie
Géorgie
Bosnie
Monténégro
Serbie
Bulgarie
Chypre

About the BIG-day: In Holland we were very strict for the participants. They must be a BIG-member. If we had allowed all the other people there would be a lot more.

About the list: I think we should not change much in the list as it is now. It's no good to change this too much. (Aspirant)Members will be diffused when the list changes too often/too much.
And it's not good to "punish" the French (for example) for not participating the BIG-day.

Dont' worry Daniel, the BIG Day was an excellent idea. The BIG challenge is living.

Le dimanche des Rameaux qui a célébré le BIG- Day est derrière nous.
Nous sommes en pleine semaine Sainte et le funeste Vendredi Saint approche.
François et Christian ont commencé leur Calvaire.
Seront-ils définitivement condamnés à mourir sur la croix?

Avant de se prononcer sur la sentence, je demande à Ponce Pilate d'analyser les chiffres suivants.

2 pays ont rélisé un score formidable:
100% pour la Lettonie et 87.32% pour la Hongrie

Gros score pour le Luxembourg avec 51.57% et pour la Roumanie avec 21.12%

3 autres pays dépassent la barre des 10%:
l'Espagne avec 15.81%, la Slovaquie avec 11.76% et la Belgique francophone avec 11%.

4 autres pays oscillent entre 6 et 9%;il s'agit de l'Autriche 9.09% , l'Allemagne avec 8.8%, l'Italie avec 7.29% et à la onzième place les
Pays -Bas avec 6.79%.

Enfin , trois autres pays ont modestement fait acte de présence;
Belgïe Vlaanderen avec 3.26%, Great Britain 1.64% et la France 1.53%.

Des 90 Tchèques, des 58 Irlandais , des 47 Polonais, des 45 Suisses et des 39 Nordiques: silence radio.

Si condamnation il devait y avoir, gardons sur le Mont des Oliviers les trois Croix;
au centre, clouons Jules coiffé de son béret tenant sa baguette et son litron de gros rouge
à gauche, attachons Elisabeth sirotant sa "cup of tea" et donnant un "nonos" à son fox-terrier
enfin, à droite, sacrifions le Vlaams Leeuw dans un tournoiement de drapeaux.

Au pied des croix, répendons en guise d'engrais quelques cendres suisses, irlandaises, tchèques et nordiques.

Non, récompenser ou punir me semble une grave erreur!

Le BIG a pour mission de promouvoir les voyages et découvertes.

Vouloir un BIG dans son jardin ne fait pas partie de la philosophie des pionniers.

A+

2 thing:
I used google translator to translate the last post.... not so good, but I could understand partly.
It's true that BIG is to help travelling and discovering other places, but that is not answer for that why some places, regions have hills and a lot of BIGs, while other places had mountains (Carpathy / Carpathians) and less BIGs.

Funny: if I understand well what Jacquemin Dominique wrote: BIG is also for travelling and discovering other places.
But why MORE travelling for the eastertn and LESS travelling for the western ? :-)))
So it wasn't a correct answer.:-), but funny.

It should be decided: the number of the BIgs has to depend on (or has to be connection )
- with the number of the members
- or it should depend on the terrain
- or both ?
If sometime in the future there would be a change there can be exact baseline: what it has to be happen to change the number of BIGs.
If people know it for the future it would be predictable.

Without going into details:
- if there will be a result of the valuation of each BIG (difficulty, euroflash, tourism, media) then we will see if there are a lot of low value BIGs in a small region. That we need !

About travelling: (it's true that the place of the countries can't be taken into account, but it's interesting that Romania and Slovakia has the Carpathy with 1500-2000 m high roads and 17 BIgs, while there are places with hills or middle mountains and a lot of BIGs.)
To a similar BIG one have to travel 100kms to collect 30-50 BIGs, here if we travel 1000-2000kms we got 10-15 BIgs.

For me it's NOT VERY important (or not that's the most important) the change (fortunately I could cycle in France, Italy, but a lot of people can't), but much more important : that each BIG should have a value. Then it's not important if Irish islands has 13 BIgs (8-10 of them 200-300m high), as I'm motivated collecting the high ones which should have more value.
If some one feel collecting 40 small ones, OK, but it would be great if it had less value then 5-8 ones with 1500m heightdifference.
Maybe it would be good to take into account a climb how much hour (ca) it need: Someone can collent 1 day 10 BIGs, while for example in Valais only 2 BIgs is 3200-3400 m heightdifference: 2 is enough for a day.

It's normal : most of the people see it for a race / competition, so it's better for them to travel less and for smaller BIGs and not to travel farer, to Romania, Slovakia.

Up to the time there are not objective valuation , it's logical that those - who have more low value BIGs - don't want to travel more.

GyG

He wrote to me. The essence of it:
There should be criteria system: minimum level which every BIG have to fit.
- minimum number of kms (1-2 km)
- or minimum average % or if it's too light thaen the max steepness for minimum 100m long. Or a rate: max steepness minimum 10% then for min 0,5 km, if it is 15% then OK for 200m or if max steepness is 20% it OK for 100 meter long.... (it was only an example without too much thinking :-) )

- or if it is on an World cup race maybe 80% of the above is enough.

Or exact criteria system for regions / countries ?

I think that the comments of Gyorgy are good and require open discussion.
The organisation depend on the support and activism of members. The results of a BIG day may be disappointing for some countris but it is not fair to judge on a single day as some places had very bad weather.
I agree that the number and activism of the member of each country should be deserved in some way to counteract that eastern cyclists are at present at disadvantage.
But we should also consider other indicators such as number of BIG/year for country or BIG/year/no. of member for country.

At present it seems very difficult to move BIGs from France/other countries to eastern countries.

Probably we can consider in the future a second or extended list


Gabriele

Funny: if I understand well what Jacquemin Dominique wrote: BIG is also for travelling and discovering other places.
But why MORE travelling for the eastertn and LESS travelling for the western ? :-)))

Les questions soulevées par mon ami Gabor sont trop nombreuses pour pouvoir y répondre d'une seule fois.

Ca fait 23 ans que je suis au BIG.
547 BIG en 23 ans = 23,78 BIG par an
Le BIG est une philosophie de vie .
C'est un voyage à long court.

J'ai vécu les débuts du BIG
d'abord 50 BIG puis 100 Big puis 200 Big puis 500 big et enfin 1000 big

J'ai voyagé comme toi Gabor avec mes sacs.
j'ai été
3 x en Sicile
2 x en Grèce
2 x en Serbie
2x en Bosnie
3 X en Croatie
1 x en Hongrie
3X en Slovénie
1 X en Ukraine
1 x en Roumanie
2x au Monténegro
2X en Macédoine
1X en Bulgarie
1X en DDR
2x en Tchéquie
1X en Pologne
2X en Slovaquie
2x en Turquie
1X à Chypre

Je ne crois pas qu'on puisse dire que je ne suis pas allé à l'est

Funny

Amitiés

Je crois que les BIGs et les membres forment deux entités indépendantes dans le challenge BIG. Les BIGs ont été choisis selon des critères sportifs, médiatiques et touristiques. Il ne faut pas que les changements dans la liste des BIGs dépendent de l'activisme des membres de tel ou tel pays. Il s'agit de deux problèmes différents. Pour l'activisme des membres, la participation au BIG day n'est pas le seul critère à prendre en compte, il faudrait aussi tenir compte de la participation aux rendez-vous, aux autres manifestations du 25ème anniversaire (IronBig, opération 2525, All dutch BIGs), du nombre moyen de réussites par membre, du pourcentage de membres actifs (ayant gravi au moins un BIG durant l'année) ... Il s'agirait plutot d'ajouter un classement.

I think that BIGs and members are two distinct parts in the challenge BIG. The BIGs have been chosen according to hardness, mediatic and touristic criteria. The changes in the list of BIGs shouldn't depend on the activism of the members of a particuliar country. It's two different problems. For the activism of the members, the participation in the BIG day isn't the only criterion to consider, we should also consider the participation in the meetings, the others events of the 25th birthday (IronBig, operation 2525, All dutch BIGs), the average number of claims by member, the percentage of active members (who have climbed at least one BIG during the year) ... It could perhaps be another classification.

Hi,

Many good suggestions here. Personally I could not commit to the original proposed BIG for Scandinavia as it would make as much sense as to go to Antarctica for me, but the second choice of Klevaliden was within reach, but it would still have been problematic for me to get there.

I think Gabriele's suggestion could be a way to expand upon the BIG concept (there are still hundreds of climbs in Italy that merit inclusion).

gbrunetti wrote:

Probably we can consider in the future a second or extended list

Gabriele

/Jerry

A FACT:
Portugal is less mountanious and has less terrain (92th km2) than Romania (238th km2), has no more serious cycling history and has no famous cycling race than Romania, but Romania has 10 BIGs, while Portugall has 18. So from Spain it's much easy to collect those 18 BIgs, from here we need much travel to collect 18 BIGs than from there: that's a fact. 18 BIGs (not in Hungary): Slovakia has 7, Romania has 10: that's only 17....

These are facts, and has also facts with Irish islands, Bretagne, etc.

Bonjour

Christian Le Corre wrote:

Je crois que les BIGs et les membres forment deux entités indépendantes dans le challenge BIG. Les BIGs ont été choisis selon des critères sportifs, médiatiques et touristiques. Il ne faut pas que les changements dans la liste des BIGs dépendent de l'activisme des membres de tel ou tel pays.

Je me joins à cette opinion!

Si on remarque que tel ou tel BIG "central" n'est plus conforme à ces demandes, et que par contre l'un ou l'autre à l'est y convient mieux, pourquoi pas. Mais pas de changements à cause de la présence des membres...

My friends Gabor and Gabor,

Could you tell the the legal procedures to obtain Hungarian nationality ?


François

meilleure zone / best zone ?
zone 05 50% [ 4 ]
zone 06 12% [ 1 ]
zone 07 37% [ 3 ]
zone 08 0% [ 0 ]
zone 09 0% [ 0 ]
zone 11 0% [ 0 ]

Total Votes : 8 (not a Big success for polls too)

Mon opinion personnelle est qu'il n'est pas approprié de procéder à des changements radicaux.
Il est évident que dans les pays où les membres sont peu nombreux l y avait beaucoup de participants en%. Je pense que nous devrions plutôt réfléchir au fait que on peutz joindre le challenge sans rien payer et il est probable que de nombreuses entrées ont été faites sans raison réelle qui touche à vélo. Je ne sais pas combien, mais il ya beaucoup de "faux"membres . Nous devons plutôt penser à les membres actifs. Seulement 64% des membres ont au moins 10 et seulement 42% ont plus de 20.
Je sens le challenge-big comme un'association vivante

2 hungarian members says that it's not the bet to lift the number of the BIGs of the eastern countries in such way to reduce the BIG numbers of others, but
option 1: reduce the number of the BIGs outside of Europe (950-1000) , or lift the total number, as (He told) the number of the UNESCO world heritage.

Precision about this very interesting topic :
* the question was not my personal question but the transfer of a request after the big-day. I did my president's job. In the next post, I'll give my personal opinion.

Précision à propos de ce sujet trè!s intéressant :
* la question ne venait pas de moi. J'ai juste transféré une requête assez nombreuse qui m'est parvenue après le big-day. C'était mon job de président de le faire. Je vais donner mon opinion personnelle dans le prochain post.

please translate to Henry (Enrico Alberini)
Why do you think the hungarians (and other eastern) have so much money to collect so many BIgs. Here to have 10 BIGs you need all the hungarians 3 4 from abroad, but in Bretagne you need only 10 hills with 2-300meters high, so YOU ARE WRONG !
The roumanians, hungarians, slovakians, etc have not the same life-level as in Western Europe and have their BIGs much more rarely.: harder and need more money to collect so many BIGs
If you mean that the members have not so good value if they have only less than 10 BIGs then I don't mean it's worth propagating it in Hungary.
I will finish it, as there are people for whom members are worth if they have min 10 BIGs.
We think opposite about the BIG organisation. You mean it as a race, I mean it as a good community of people who like cycling ascents.
Up to now I spoke about BIG as a good community: there is no MUST to be a collector, but you say opposite.

Than the MOST SERIOUS DECISION the BIG need: is the BIG a race (with different conditions for the members) or a community of people who like cycling ascents ?

From now on I won't do for having more hungarian members, I hope you will be happy with this Enrico !

Henry wrote:

Mon opinion personnelle est qu'il n'est pas approprié de procéder à des changements radicaux.
Il est évident que dans les pays où les membres sont peu nombreux l y avait beaucoup de participants en%. Je pense que nous devrions plutôt réfléchir au fait que on peutz joindre le challenge sans rien payer et il est probable que de nombreuses entrées ont été faites sans raison réelle qui touche à vélo. Je ne sais pas combien, mais il ya beaucoup de "faux"membres . Nous devons plutôt penser à les membres actifs. Seulement 64% des membres ont au moins 10 et seulement 42% ont plus de 20.
Je sens le challenge-big comme un'association vivante

Franchement, au lire des interventions, j'ai la nette impression que l'on s'achemine tout doucement vers un dialogue de sourds. Deux camps bien distincts, les réactionnaires et l'ancienne garde défendent âprement leur fonds de commerce ! Bis repetita ! On a déjà vécu cette situation dans le passé !

Ma question à Gabor et Gabriele !
Admettons qu'ils se fassent embaucher dans une banque ! Pensent-ils vraiment que la direction va leur donner aussitôt crédit et mettre les valeurs sûrs au placard ?
Autre exemple ! Je ne vois pas les chemins de fer modifier leur réseau parce qu'ils se mettent maintenant à prendre le train. Et pour combien de temps encore ?

Le BIG existe depuis 25 ans. La mayonnaise ne plaît pas à tout le monde, me semble-t-il ! Mais si notre maître queux se met à jouer à l'apprenti-sorcier, est-ce que notre bonne sauce ne risque-t-elle pas de tourner sans espoir de retour ?

Bref ! Le BIG ressemble de plus en plus à un refrain d'Alain qui ânonne... carrément méchant, jamais content...carrément débile, j'trouve pas mon style !

Si ma prose pose problème , je le regrette sincèrement mais je ne tiens pas à m'égarer dans un "traduttore, traditore".

Enrico,
Why do you have problems with the hungarians with less than 10 BIgs.
LOok the bergian and holland members: 250-250 members underr 10 BIGs.
500 members with less than 10 BIGs. Don't you have problems with them and we know the holland BIGs are lower then 5 of the hungarian BIGs.
(And I think most of those have BIGs mainly from Holland)
If a hungarian have 8-9 BIGs that guy 99% sure that climbed 900-100 m high ascent, while HUngary has only 6 BIGs. And the holland collectors?
If they have 10 BIgs it could be only on 200m high hills :-))

That's about your "correct" comparision!
:-))

Gabor

Shall I? Or shall I not (give my comment)?? This is the question

If I do understand well, Henry is not making a selection in good (more than 10) and bad (less then 10) members.

If I do understand well, he is complaining about s lot of members, who subscribed (because it is for free??!!) at the Challenge, and then disappear from the scenery??

Probably a good message, but not absolutely On Topic??? Since the original question is not about that??

But I have to agree with him: most of our "participants" on the BIG-day (LUX) where not members, at that day*! I send mailings to all members, but got nearly none answer! Except a few ones.


* I am pleased to see that at least two persons are members now, after that day!