MODIFICATION SOMMET / TO MODIFY A TOP

Proposition de loi :

UN SOMMET D'UN BIG pourra être



1) Rehaussé !

si la partie ajoutée vers le haut est entièrement revêtue ET
si la partie ajoutée vers le haut offre un plus incontournable (pourcentages élevés ou vues imprenables ou arrivées fréquentes de courses) ET
si le nom du sommet plus élevé n’enlève pas du renom au premier nom plus connu.


2) Rabaissé !

si la partie éliminée est devenue impraticable à vélo quel que soit le vélo utilisé OU
si la partie éliminée est devenue interdite durant toute l’année à toute heure OU
si la partie éliminée n’apportait rien en difficulté, tourisme ou média à l’ascension mais que le nom plus bas apporte plus de renom.


3) légèrement déplacé !

si le déplacement est minime et laisse presque l’intégralité de l’ascension identique ET
si le déplacement ajoute un attrait supplémentaire à l’ascension : qualité du revêtement et forts pourcentages ou point de vue ou arrivée médiatisée.

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LAW'S SUGGESTION

The top of a BIG may be



1) upper !

if the road added upper is totally surfaced AND
if the road added gives a plus (steep gradients or marvelous landscapes or used arrivals of prestigious races AND
if the name of the new top upper doesn't delete the reputation (wellknow name) of the BIG when the name down is more known.


2) lower !

if the final section became completely unrideable whatever the bike used OR
if the final section is now forbidden all along the year all the time of every day Or
if the final section didn't give nothing more to the climb according to his flat area, bad landscape and bad surface and if the lower point is more known than the upper one.


3) shortly moved !

if the move is very short and let the main part of the climb similar AND
if the move adds an agreement to the climb : quality of the surface and steep gradients or landscapes or mediatic arrival.

I agree with each of the suggestions:
IT would be good if a few BIG changed on these rules. Maybe there are a few ones.

Gabor

It is not clear to me if all the conditions should be satisfied or only one of them.

The no 1) the road added is totally surfaced is not in line with the current situation where several BIG climbs (in Italy too) need a MTB.
I would change in "there is evidence from media (e TV image) that the road can be cycled !

It should be mentioned if the new arrival is a different toponym name with respect to the current toponym (to make an example Plan de Corones vs Passo Furcia) or only a partial change (Monte Penice vs Passo Penice). The first change would required stricter criteria.


One important condition is that the road must be present in the reference map for that country which are constantly updated (ie Atlas TCI in Italy, Michelin in FRance). This would warrant cyclists in terms of practicality and notoriety.

For the rest I agree with Daniel suggestions.

I think that moving the top higher is in the spirit of the Challenge and will make the BIG even more BIG !

Gabriele





or The new I think that in someway a mention to the fact dithe differen

Voici quelques exemples possibles, here are some possible examples :

Nr 38. Bispbergs Klack (dernier kilomètre en VTT obligatoire avec possibilité de passage piéton obligatoire, last km with MTB as a must, and perhaps sometimes to walk).

Nr173. Herzogenhorn (le col du Feldberg est plus bas, et le mont Feldberg est de l'autre côté du col et plus haut, revêtu ! - the Feldberg Pass is lower and the Feldberg Mount is on the other side of the pass and higher, surfaced !)

Nr200. Rossfeld (le Kehlstein, plus connu et plus haut, juste sur l'autre versant, est interdit selon certains et autorisé pour les cyclistes selon d'autres ???? - The Kehlstein, more known and higher, just on the other side, is forbidden for someones and authorized for the other ones ????)

Nr236.Pic de l'Aigle (aucune route revêtue ne joint le sommet, on cherche désespérément un nom au plus haut point de la route; no surfaced road reaches the top, we're fetching desperately a name for the highest point of the road)

Nr620. Kitzbüheler Horn (l'Alpenhaus est situé 200m plus bas que le Horn et est l'arrivée habituelle des courses cyclistes, la fin étant un sentier cyclable apparemment - l'Alpenhaus is 200m lower than the Horn and is the current arrival of the cycling races, the end being a path rideable in appearance)

Nr673. Auf der Schanz (le lieu dit n'est pas le col, ni le point le plus élevé de la route, mais c'est le seul nom indiqué dans les parages - the name isn't the pass, neither the highest point of the road, but it's the lonely name indicated nearby).

709. Passo Furcia (Pian de Corones vient juste d'être l'arrivée d'une étape du tour d'Italie mais depuis le col, la route est en cendrée et n'est pas certaine d'être entretenue - Pian de Corones has just been the arrival of a stage in the Giro 2008 but from the pass, the road is a gravelled road, rideable and is not certain to be kept in this state any longer).

754.Passo del Faiallo (Passo del Turchino est plus connu puisque dans Milan San-Remo mais 500m plus bas - Passo del Turchino is more known because it is part of Mailand San Remo but it's 500m lower)

756. Passo Penice (le Mont Penice - sorry! - est plus haut et le final semble revêtu - Mount Penice - Penice Vetta ? - is higher and seems to be surfaced).

Si vous avez d'autres exemples, ajoutez-les à cette liste.
If you have some other examples, add them to this list.

Si vous avez des précisions sur cette liste, donnez-les nous !
If you have precisions in this list, give them to us !

Answering to the first remark of Gabriele, when a climb is totally with MTB : no problem !
If 90% of the climb is with a road bike and the last 10% asks to change the bike, it seems to be a pity !

Pour répondre à la première remarque de Gabriele, quand une ascension est totalement en VTT pas de problèmes !
Si 90% de l'ascension est en vélo de route et que les 10 derniers % nécessitent un changement de vélo, cela semble dommage !

Rossfeld vs Kehlstein: It's true that i was there 10 years ago by car, but then on the Kehlstein road transport busses were travelling - the road is very narrow, I don't know if cyclists are let to cycle there. No place for overtaking the cyclists.
The parorama is very nice from both places.

Kitzbüheler Horn: my opinion is if the road is not so bad on the last section, it's better to cycle to the top, because of the panorama. Not the best if we are cycling ca. 10kms up on a hard climb and not climb the last 2kms to the top, but there is a road.
Here it seems that is paved to the top:
http://www.almenrausch.at/mountainbiketouren/touren_tirol/oestl_kitzbueheler_kaisergebirge_chiemgauer/kitzbuehlerhorn/kitzbuehelerhorn.html#

Here the same:
http://www.alpintouren.at/AT2006/index.asp?LID=1&CT=DETAIL&TourID=16524&TourTypID=4&DetailTypID=1
not so wide, but paved !

Gabor

daniel gobert wrote:

Nr200. Rossfeld (le Kehlstein, plus connu et plus haut, juste sur l'autre versant, est interdit selon certains et autorisé pour les cyclistes selon d'autres ???? - The Kehlstein, more known and higher, just on the other side, is forbidden for someones and authorized for the other ones ????)

Nr620. Kitzbüheler Horn (l'Alpenhaus est situé 200m plus bas que le Horn et est l'arrivée habituelle des courses cyclistes, la fin étant un sentier cyclable apparemment - l'Alpenhaus is 200m lower than the Horn and is the current arrival of the cycling races, the end being a path rideable in appearance)


Si vous avez des précisions sur cette liste, donnez-les nous !
If you have precisions in this list, give them to us !

Je viens juste de télécharger la carte topo du Penice sur le site. En effet, il semble que la route du Passo ait un prolongement naturel vers le Monte Penice.
Rappel de la procédure :
1) le GIO va devoir entériner (majorité des 2/3) le réglement ci-dessus ou le refuser
2) S'il est accepté, les JL devront voter pour accepter ou non les propositions que nous allons leur faire.(majorité des 2/3 aussi).

Je propose que nous fassions, si ce réglement est accepté une 1ière proposition, pour rehausser le Passo del Penice en Monte Penice (ou Penice Vietta : est-ce le bon nom véritable ?).
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I just downloaded the topomap of Penice. In fact, it seems that the road of the Passo del Penice has a natural following way to the mount Penice.
Let's recall the management :
1) the GIO will have to decide if yes or no we agree the rules here up.
2) If yes, the JL will have to vote if yes or no, they agree the modifications thatw e'll suggest according to the new rules.
Each time, a two-third majority is required.

I suggest that we make, if those rules have an agreement, a first suggest to increase the height of the Passo del penice, to the Mount Penice (is Penice Vetta the good real name ?)

De Jean-Pierre Carreras, à; propos de San Pietro (nr 796) :
Concernant les noms donnés, un seul me parait vraiment sujet à caution, c'est San Pietro. Aucune allusion sur le terrain, et comme je te le disais le village portant ce nom est trop éloigné (10 km à vol d'oiseau). Comme nom possible on pourrait tenter San Costanzo. C'est le nom de la chapelle que l'on voit en point de mire depuis Termini, et au pied de laquelle on passe 1 km avant le sommet. De plus ce nom se retrouve sur Google et sur un dépliant trouvé à Massa Lubrense. Autre chose les altitudes indiquées semblent erronées. Massa Lubrense se trouve à 130m et la fin de la route à 320m (pas de quoi fouetter un chat cependant).
Pour les autres BiGs, certes pas toujours faciles à dégoter, avec un peu de jugeote, de la methode et l'aide des personnes du cru, on parvient à ses fins !
J.P.Carreras

On bouge le sommet !

I saw that Bispbergs klack was mentioned and since I was up there a couple of weeks ago, I thought I'd give an update on the current state of the road/path.

The climb is about 2 km and can be divided into four parts of approximately 0.5 km each. The first part is paved and not anything to worry about. The next section is a gravel track that can be ridden with a road bike if one is a bit careful with loose gravel and avoids sharp stones.

The third section is also gravel track, but in a quite bad condition. It has been raining quite a lot in the area this summer and since there are no proper ditches on the side of the track, the water has really made the road very difficult to negotiate with a road bike. I just barely made it and on the steepest section I had to walk when going down since I am sure I would have fallen otherwise due to all loose gravel.

The fourth and final section is a foot path. I tried to ride it but had to get off my bike and walk most of it. There was even one place where a tree was lying over the path.

To conclude, I think that this climb is somewhat questionable to include as a BIG at all. Shouldn't the climbs at least be gravel tracks if they are not paved? Otherwise, any foot path would be a candiadate for inclusion as long as it is not too steep to ride with an MTB.

Without knowing the reason for including it in the first place, I guess it is because of the quite nice view from the top. However, there are climbs in the same region with probably even nicer views and which are roads and not paths. One example is Vidablick outside of Rättvik with nice view of Siljan (the 7th largest lake in Sweden). I think its characteristics are similar to that of Bispbergs klack from a climbing point of view. Furthermore, it is included as part of one of the more popular MTB races in Sweden.

d'accord

All of those topics must interest the judges of the list